Features. I set up to compare the power reading from roadtrainer + my trainer against stages with my 910XT. Whereas the middle section was more stable. Inside the box there’s a card which you can then go online and enter in your SKU number. Stages just a few hours ago released the firmware updated into the Apple app store. I see no drops when recording on my trainer with roadtrainer sw and a ANT+ stick (the garmin stick which came with the 910XT ! Its either both or none at all. right leg heavy)? . To be clear, my Stages dies yesterday and would not work. Jeez calling him out huh? (My theory – build a largish batch of dual-head units with R & L sensors – gather craploads of data that allows them to more accurately model the behavior from a single pedal. Stages purchases them brand new, and that’s where the process starts: Then they’ve got their pods. It does this via accelerometers within the unit, there are no magnets required. I think that’s likely how most of “us” would be using the product… If you record data from Stages and another power meter, you could see how well the Stages meter performs for that kind of pacing (i.e., were you able to stay in your target zones according to power readings from the other meters by using Stages to pace). I’ll be waiting for more info on this–being a poor college cyclist I can’t even remotely imagine a quarq or powertap or power2max so this was hotly anticipated… We shall see , One tidbit, if this is a left leg issue, then it might still be workable for road training, but then this is utterly useless on a mountain bike. I am so fed up with trying to hold any power number but since this is my first meter I’m not sure what the story is. I prefer this Garmin cadence sensor … The cadence sensor is a bonus, and I have a queue of people wanting to try it. Sorry, here’s a better link to their site with the release info: link to stagescycling.com. That’s a good thing. So from a practical standpoint, how would these issues affect an individuals training? Like I said above, it’s just data from me. This ride started as about 20ish minutes getting to the park, then a number of loops around the park before returning across town. The implementation would be tricky and it’d require some complicated calculations, but I have to believe there is a better way to handle this than simply doubling the left leg power. But the same was true of the CycleOps PowerCal. > For outdoor ride 1, it looks l like the Quarq is reading high for more like 30 minutes than 10. Chagren, fair enough. I received my replacement unit this morning (Tuesday), and just finished a ride with it, so you can see that the folks at Stages are very responsive in terms of technical support. No problem, the product comparison data is constantly updated with new products and new features added to old products! Great review as always. Why haven’t you yet released a review for XYZ product you mentioned months ago? In fact, reliability aside, it was a great unit and I’m already missing it! As noted, the update to this review has been published here: link to dcrainmaker.com. Second question is that that personally I have large variations in my HR at specific (PT) power levels – particularly in the rolling terrain of St Louis county. If the data is in the stream, it is likely a trivial matter to program into a iOS or android application, and a BT headset can be used for audio output. I see this on trainer road (My back tires hub has horrible engagement, so the power goes all over before I steady out). Most of my bikes have a cadence sensor, that cadence is unique and therefore identified the bike in use. Had a couple of power drops…5-6 seconds…but none since the firmware upgrade. Why just curiosity to compare results… They have a slew of crank arms on the market today, though are missing notables like ROTOR cranks. The cadence and speed sensor are actually good products, easy to install and connect. Again, no issues here at all. Then, as I shift to left-leg heavy, you see that it substantially increases the measured total power well above what was actually being put out (which was hard-set at 150w). These are only units that Stages have full support/warranty agreements with the different crank manufactures – which is many of them. Garmin unit is Edge 500. Is it possible that I need to change some settings in my 705? This exact thing happened with my second Stages. Like this: Then, you’ll dive into your cycling computer head unit and into the power meter section: The tolerance here is is a few degrees, so it doesn’t have to be absolute perfect straight up and down. If I pedaled at a 200 watt level it would read 1,000 watts. Ready to ship in 24h¹ |  The dispatch of goods may be delayed in exceptional circumstances. I gathered data on three separate head units (often times 5-6 head units for redundancy), and then zipped it all up with clear explanations of what I was doing and sent it to them. The battery was still strong. There’s something different between the chipset /firmware Garmin put in a 910XT and their bike computers. Above cadence graph provided by Robert (more on his analysis in a second). ps., didn’t read all the comments, but if this point was raised elsewhere my apologies for being redundant. However, I have other data points that pretty much tell the same story (most of the time I was dual-recording devices). In general, to their credit I almost never saw the Stages PM drifting from an offset standpoint. Ray did a great job explaining that his results are from an n=1 study, but frankly the Internet doesn’t actually pay attention to logical explanations like that… it just works itself into a frenzy. They have made very solid firmware improvements, and many of the areas they improved were absolutely a direct result of the first review due to issues they had that we identified. Afraid both O-rings were fine and the battery compartment dry when I opened it. … Want to compare the features of each product, down to the nitty-gritty? I’m curious if they do continue to improve the SW, how much effort there will be to roll that out. Works seamlessly with my Garmin Edge 1000 when riding outside and pairs quickly with Zwift for indoor training. I get to run whatever pedal system I want (in my case real Look keo blades rather than some knockoff) and it doesn’t have the goofy look of pods hanging from the pedal. the odd thing with stages … Went for another ride in the rain. Thanks for the update! I’d been optimistic about Stages bringing power into a more feasible pricepoint for me. I use 3s as my ‘instant power’, and 30s to watch for trending. weiterlesen... Es ist an der Zeit, den ewigen Begleiter des Kletterers, den Felsen, etwas genauer unter die Lupe zu nehmen! In this case, I focused 100% on keeping the force on the full rotation of my right leg. This is what other crank/pedal PMs do in my experience. That being said, I have the stage and did a comparison test and the Stages cadence was pretty accurate itself at least on the trainer. You didn’t record the zero offset values from the three powermeters before and after the test? I’ve been thinking/hoping this would make a good addition to my MTB, I use my PT on my road and Tri bikes, and – mediocre rider that I am – it bugs me that a Mountain ride leaves a blank for power when I upload. What I did was start off with a 10-minute warm-up, where the last two minutes I did two quick 300w 30-second sprints. If you could zoom in, you’d see that over the “normal” range of cadence the Quarq and PowerTap are almost on top of each other, while the Stages is reporting slightly lower crank torque. Now, the real value starts to occur when you can meld these two together over time and understand your own training patterns. And we’re not talking a small amount – but rather shifts upwards of 40w. – Accelerometer based cadence measurement works really well Thanks for the well written review. When it comes to power pricing, one does have to remember that the older PowerTap hubs are available for within the same price range (at higher accuracy). One big PRO I would add is the overall weight of the unit. I wouldn’t hold it against them in this case as I haven’t seen it since.). Again, this is an exaggeration of an imbalance for the point of this graph, but it shows the impact. Wir tauschen uns gerne aus - Wir sind auf Deine Meinung gespannt! If you are thinking about buying this product, go for it! What do I care if a 180-pound masher can pull 300W on his Quark and that I can only maintain 200W. Updated constantly! As I said earlier, I had no problems with variability of reading and the unit suits my purpose. For outdoor ride 1, it looks l like the Quarq is reading high for more like 30 minutes than 10. (Note: Your installation may differ slightly, as there are some 100 different crank-arms and cranks that they support – including crank lengths. Can it accurately tell me if I am gaining or losing fitness based on my 20 minute and 60 minute power which I plan on testing monthly? For example, the Quarq seemed to read abnormally high for the first 10 minutes until I performed the standard calibration of all units, then things stablized out. I emailed Stages to ask about compatibility for my bike and they said they “believe” it might not fit because of the rear brake and how tight it “might” be during frame flex. I replaced the battery and it started to work again. And in particular, it’s based on my cycling leg power distribution (left vs. right). Installation was easy as DC indicated.Updating the fw through my iphone was easy too. The challenge is how to report the torque over many report periods (one per second) when the cadence value is known less than once per second. Here is the forums about the 510/810 power issues: Of course, with those hubs you lose a lot of flexibility, and depending on how old you go, a lot of data portability. I’m sufficiently numerically literate to know i) what I’m looking for and ii) the nuances of the analytics (I love time series analysis). In some of those cases, I was dual-streaming data across both Bluetooth Smart and ANT+, hoping to further ferret out any data issues. reading the review and the deltas to other power meters (even with 5m smoothing), seems like it will NOT be consistent, right? Any updates since the new firmware update? As soon as I started riding, it started to rain. It was back ordered and it took about a month to get it. Typically you’ll find most cyclists in the 80-100RPM range. link to durhamcycles.com. Ray, I have a Speed Concept 9.5 with an Ultegra setup. Respond from StagesCycling (Will): I’m looking at adding other rider data in. Thus, the wattages got a bit lower as I got into the easier gears: As you can see, as I worked my way down the rear cassette, the alignment between the Quarq and the LeMond were nearly spot-on. I recognize that checking luggage isn’t a huge deal for most people (and thankfully that night I had tons of time), but it is something you should at least be semi aware of when travelling. These batteries only cost a couple bucks at the drug/grocery store, or you can buy them online in bulk like I do. Below is a relatively simple and straight forward power ramp test. It is also does not work with carbon fiber crank arms, correct? Click above for all the details. Cadence measures how frequently your crank arm completes a rotation, measured in Revolutions Per Minute (RPM). But ultimately that becomes the core of the problem – the inability to count on it 100% (or even 90% of the time) makes it tough from a data analysis standpoint, as well as a pacing tool in races or training. I used scissors to cut the tape to look neat and clean. One arm up, one arm down. I’m using 3 second power and my cadence will be dead on and my power numbers will go from 245 to 169 to 119 to 300. I have done measurements with accelerometers to measure vibrations in the bicycle due to the road surface. In the end, one slice of singles cheese (with wrapper), is equal to 20g: I don’t usually tend to be one to fuss over every last gram, especially when you put it in perspective like above. In short, eat one less piece of cheese. They then helped me formulate the data behind what you see below. – Cheapest direct force power meter on market today (new) Most (actually, all I think) tend to, usually privately first if there are any technical corrections (misinformation listed). (I’m probably going to standardize on one crank model for my two primary bikes). No issues to report during or after the ride. I *personally* noticed when I started out cycling I favored the right a LOT due to previous fiascos with my left knee. They’d do it for every unit in the world if they could. Drivetrain Meters: Cranks and Hubs All items in stock. I wouldn’t risk doing it otherwise, simply because if you hose up the torque values you’ll likely break something. Naturally, the catch would be if the units are doing any kind of smoothing that could obscure the accuracy of those comparisons. Then again this is perhaps painting as you said the picture on left leg only. But correct, not compatible (hence why removed). I received it a week ago. Here’s a bunch of random trip reports and daily trip-logs that I’ve put together and posted. Both legs were clipped in. The two became much closer. Will go for a ride now. Touch device users, explore by touch or with swipe gestures. First, you’ve got your existing non-drive side crank-arm on there (btw, non-drive side simply means the side without the chainrings (the spikey things)): Before you go and take off your crank-arm, take off your pedal first. If you have the data, could you plot Power vs. temperature, Power vs cadence and Power vs Heart rate for your outdoor rides. Quick follow-up question – did you find those fluctuations impaired your ability to hold target wattage or cadence ranges while you were riding, or was that something that something that became evident only when reviewing post-ride data? I would imagine that they Stages unit will get more accurate over time and supporting both ANT+ and bluetooth makes it future-proof for the foreseeable future. It does NOT show that cadence itself is inaccurate below 60RPM – I found that to be fine (at least indoors). Alle Inhalte im Überblick gibt es in der Sitemap. And finally, as I return to normal power, you see the two stabilize on top of each other. As noted above, it was incredibly consistent and an area I really like (the concept of set it and forget it). That’s not to say I don’t want an update out – trust me, I probably do more than anyone else. The cadence portion seems to still work fine. The concept of a 20g power meter that is independent of your wheelset is so fabulous. In general, you’ll see any apps that support the Wahoo Fitness KICKR, will also support the Stages power meter – because they share the Bluetooth Smart power meter profile. I’ve had mine (Ultegra, Grety) since February and have really had nothing but a positive experience with it. As you point out issues become apparent with outdoor rides – which are a lot less steady state than people think. Obviously one possibility is that both systems are in fact reading the wattage correctly at their given location (spider/hub) raising the possibility that wattage is ‘lost’ in the transmission system (eg, chain, hub, cassette, pulley wheels, and chainrings.) (3) Your wattage may vary. Is that a Shimano BB with a SRAM crankset? If you look at this from a difference standpoint, the below chart plots the 5s running difference (to account for 1-2s latency). The cadence sensor works with the iPhone and many Android phones as well as iPod and iPad devices. It would be very interesting if Stages could comment on these findings, and if the accuracy issues can be addressed with firmware updates. They had three different automated testing platforms going at the time I was there, all three of which had a robotic  foot  (for lack of better term) that was pedaling the bicycle on the left crank arm at a specified and changing rate. Note that the below chart is updated dynamically in real-time from a database, with the most recent update listed at the bottom. You see this often reflected in some of the graphs below – the constantly changing nature of things. Want to track both at once? Long term, I’d love to understand what impact pedal balance may or may not have though. Garmin unit is Edge 500. Plus, you'll be more awesome. I too have been waiting for a re-review — hearing that Stages have the issues worked out is the only thing that stands in the way of me pulling the trigger and buying one for myself. Yippee ! Excellent article. Unlike some other low-end power meters on the market today everything is measured at the crank-arm, so there’s no dependency on a specific trainer or knowing a trainer power curve. With that out of the way, the question then becomes what does that mean for accuracy on the whole system? I took a look at the power profiles you posted, and while I still have a lot to learn when it comes to reviewing power data, I thought that all in all the data appeared to track pretty well. I’m on the latest firmware for 705 (3.30 I think). My question, which is probably dealt with in one of the comments, is that there appears to be significant differences in the data between the Quarq, PT, etc….apparently not all explained by zero offset and power-train inefficiency. Put in a new battery and upgraded the firmware. In short: It measures left leg output only and then doubles it. Is that “accurate power?” I’d get an iBike instead. It’s just a page size limitation thing. There’s no limit for checked luggage. Did you use the crank in that configuration for the whole test? Great review as always. Oh, and you can sign-up for the newsletter here! Not having good accuracy makes comparing power files across your power meter history a bit difficult. This compact sensor is magnet free, and minuscule in size, so it's barely noticeable … rather than spinning up from say 200W to 210W do you “over-use” your right leg to drive up the power and then when you’ve settled on the new power revert to a more spinning style? In looking at this data, it seems that the Stages power meter ‘pulses’ a bit as I increased each power level, or decreased it. I also tried moving it off the crank arm by hand 24 hours later and it stayed put just fine (the 1st essentially flicked off). It’s as simple as that. I wonder if its analysis paralysis over actually riding your bike…. I wonder if differences in the mechanical characteristics of the crank arms may have contributed to some of the mismatches you recorded. However, according to Golden Cheetah, the data was already coming in at 1 second intervals. Different rides, different days, different everything. I say crank-region, meaning anything within about a 6-8” of that area. I currently run a PT Pro model but the idea of shedding 200 grams and having more wheel choices makes the Stages PM worth looking into. Outdoors, we see a wee bit more variation in cadence, but not enough that I personally noticed it myself on the ride. ... Magene S3+ Cycling Speed or Cadence Sensor, ANT+ and Bluetooth 4.0 Wireless Bicycle RPM Sensor. "Herzlich willkommen bei den Bergfreunden!". I don’t at this point have detail of what they fixed exactly (beyond just ‘cadence’ items), but am working to get greater clarifications. Perhaps this wattage gap could be examined as it has intriguing implications for improving transmission efficiency. Maybe it’s just my Analytical skillset yelling here…. Even my Mom could do it (no offense meant Mom). 1. Stages handled the wet and rain no problem. Do we need to bug rotor to send you one . This is pretty complex – so hang in here with me. The extended plan is available for up to 14 days after the unit is purchased, and will last two years in total. Awesome review. How much of an effect that has is the big question, and the only way to know that would be to study L/R balance of a large sample of cyclists. So far so good with the new adhesive being used to attach it to the crank. Based on the ramp test results I expected to see similar effects outdoors but that wasn’t the case. 2. In fact, it’s right on their own site: You see it again in listing their algorithm online: This is why they are careful to always claim accuracy with the caveat of “as measured”. It wouldn’t likely have mattered, but i plan on using this on two bikes with five wheelsets (one road, one cx). Any revision history or list of changes in that new version? Updated 3:00AM EST 1/19/13: Added summary table in outdoor tests, thoughts on total power, additional cadence plot, information on accuracy across all PM’s. Hey Ray, During the ride, as noted above I saw the unit fluctuate the 10s and 30s power than than any other power meter I’ve seen to date. The torque falls away linearly though not in a straight line back to the origin. Thanks again! It was especially good since new firmware update. But that doesn’t answer the question of how it varies person to person either. I guess I don’t mind spoilers, and it really set up the rest of your very detailed analysis. Are the differences big enough that a coach would change your workouts based on this? As I noted above, below are the crank-arm instructions as provided by the manufacturer of your chosen crank-arm. It is installed on the crank arm and sends its data via ANT+ or Bluetooth Smart to a bicycle computer or smartphone. > Unless you have a device that measures l/r power and know, you dont know. And I see that DC Rainmaker has done a very detailed 2nd review of the Stages Power Meter. This is a great review – a lot to take in. Simple as that. My exact configuration was run past Stages well in advance of testing, and they supplied a compatible unit for this setup that they were comfortable with. Will you be retesting this in the future to evaluate if the accuracies have been remedied? Enjoy! On two other garmin 910XT, I saw the connection drops within a minute. Hmm, I haven’t seen any others out there since the initial press event. one thing I curious about is how many people have actually used a device that measures L/R power? The Stages Cycling Cadence Sensor is a magnet-free cadence sensor that fits to your crank arm and provides real-time, accurate, accelerometer-based cadence data. While what you’re saying could be true, I believe we’ve mitigated all those sticking points. Additionally, you can pair it with Trainer Road on a Mac (but not yet a PC), as well as upcoming builds of Golden Cheetah on a Mac. See updated review.]. These approved cranks must be purchased from Stages, due to the attachment/baking/curing process of adding the pod to the crank arm. Update as well as hotels/car/etc ride, this time to time clean data-wise central the! 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